Shortly after the alarm was raised that murder, two murders in fact, had been committed at 92 Second Street, Officer William H. Medley of the Fall River Police Force arrived at the murder scene. From that point on, and for several days after the murders, Officer Medley worked tirelessly investigating leads and questioning possible witnesses. As the Fall River Heraldreported on the day after the murders,

 His important testimony, which clearly helped the prosecution. 




From the Lizzie Borden Trial Transcript Volume I.

Page 684

Willam H. Medley sworn in

(William Moody) Second Chair For the Prosecution.

Q. Your name is William H. Medley?

    A. Yes sir

Q. You are at present doing special work on Fall river police force?

    A. Yes sir. 

Q. Under the title of what is called inspector?

    A. Inspector

Q.And last year you were a patrolman?

    A. Patrolman.

Q. did you act in any special capacity last year?

    A. From the 4th day of August afterwards.  I have not returned to patrol duty since.

Q. Upon the 4th day of August did you obtain any knowledge of a homicide at the Borden house?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Where were you when you obtained it?

    A. Near the north police station or rather in the north police station.

Q.  From whom did you obtain the information?

    A. The city marshal by telephone.

Page 685

Q. What time was it at that time?

    A. About twenty-five minutes after eleven o’clock.

Q. How do you fix that time?

    A. I went from the depot the Old Colony depot, to the police station. I made it a practice always after.

                MR. ROBINSON. (for the defense) Never mind the practice.

Q. What you did this day?

    A. I went from the depot that day after the Boston train left and went part of the way down to the                          police station with a friend of mine, and left him, met another man, and went with him further along and went into the police station and while in the police station this friend of mine got up to go and I said, “Don’t hurry”

Q. Not the conversation?

    A. “I will go with you to dinner.”

Q. Not the conversation, just what you did.

    A. I said.

Q. No, not what you said.

    A, Oh, he got up to go and I got up with him and started over towards my house calculating to get there in three or four or five minutes. I was due at dinner at half past eleven and as soon as I got outside perhaps 50 yards or so from the door, the janitor called me back and said…

Q. Never mind what he said.

    A. I went to the telephone.

Q. And is it at that time that you got the information that you have told of?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And that, you say was 25 minutes past eleven or thereabouts?

Page 686

     A. Or thereabouts.

Q. What time did the Boston train leave that you have spoken of as having seen off?

    A. About four minutes after eleven, according to my recollection.

Q. Speak a little louder, Mr. Medley. Which depot were you at to see the train off?

    A. The Fall River depot, Bowenville, that is in the northern part of the city.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson) Is that a large station?

    A. Yes sir.

Q.(By Mr. Moody.) How far is it from that depot to the northern police station?

    A. Well I can’t tell by measurement. I can tell better by the length of time required to walk it. 

Q. I would prefer that. Give us that.

    A. About five minutes.

Q. Did you delay on your way to the station or did you go immediately there?

    A. I delayed some.

Q. How long had you been at the station before you turned to go away with the friend that you spoke of?

    A.  Perhaps five minutes.

Q. Did you consult any timepiece at or about the time when you received the message from the telephone?

    A. Not then.

Q. How soon after did you?

    A. I didn't after for some time.

Q. You didn’t after?

    A. Not after for some time. Before.

Q. When last before had you seen a timepiece?

    A. When my friend got up to go I looked at the clock to guide myself as to my dinner hour.

Q. And what time was it by the station clock at the time?

    A. Twenty-three minutes past eleven, about.

Q. Do you know whether your friend looked at anything?

    A. He did.

Q. What did he look at?

    A. At the clock.

Q. Who is who was there?

    A. Thomas King, the man who has charge of the street lights in the northern district.

Page 687

Q. After getting this message where did you go, Mr. Medley?

    A. to the City Marshal’s office.

Q. How did you get there?

    A. I stopped a team that was going by the police station and rode in the team to the office.

Q. Whose team was it?

    A. I don’t know whose team it was.

Q. At what pace did you go to the central police station from the northern police station?

    A. As fast as I could get the man to urge the horse.

Q. How long did it take you to go?

    A. Six or seven minutes.

Q. Did you go on a trot or what?

  1. It was sort of a grocery order wagon with a cover on it.

Q. No, I don’t mean that, What was the gait of the horse?
    A. I could not say as to that, it was quite fast. 

Q. When you got to the station house did you see anyone?

    A. The city Marshal.

Q. How long did you delay at the station house?

    A. Long enough for him to tell me to go to 92 Second street and there—-

      MR. ROBINSON (To counsel on the other side) For the conversation you do not care?

      MR. MOODY. Simply that he got a message.

Q. Long enough to get a message from the Marshal?
    A. Marshal Hilliard.

Q. Then where did you go?

    A. 92 Second street.

Q. How did you go?

    A. I walked.

Q. Do you know what time you arrived there?

    A. About twenty or nineteen minutes of twelve.

Q. Did you have any occasion, or did you in point of fact, look at any timepiece later than the clock in the northern police station?

Page 688

    A. Yes sir.

Q. When and where?

    A. When I was passing City Hall.

Q. What time was it as you passed the City Hall

    A. I saw nineteen or twenty minutes of twelve.

Q. From the City Hall or from the point next to City Hall where you observed this clock, did you go directly to the Borden House?

    A. Yes sir.

Q.Whom did you see there when you first got there?

    A. Mr. Sawyer was the first one, a man at the door. 

Q. What did you do after you got there

    A. Inquired for Mr. Fleet.

Q. Did you see Mr. Fleet there she you got there.

    A. No Sir.

Q. Did you see him at any later time than that?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Can you tell us about how long after you got there it was before Mr. Fleet got there?

    A. My best recollection would be a minute of two.

Q. Hd you been in the house before Mr. Fleet came?

    A. No sir. 

Q. After Mr. Fleet came, what did you do?

    A. I went round the house and walked round part of the way to the back door and tried a cellar door, a porch and looked around generally and went in the house.

Q. How did you find the cellar door?

A. I say I went in the rear of the house and while there tried this cellar door. The cellar door was fast.

Page 689

Q. Whom did you see as or after you went into the house?

    A. I saw Mr. Fleet again and Mr. Mullally, Miss Russell, Mrs. Churchill and one or two doctors and Miss Lizzie Borden.

Q. Did you have any talk with Miss Lizzie Borden?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. What talk did you have with her?

    A. I asked her where she was when this thing occurred and she told me that she was up stairs in the barn.

Q. Is that in substance all the talk that you had with her?

    A. No, I asked her before that if she had any idea as to who committed the crimes, and she didn’t have the remotest idea.

Q. That is, she said so?

    A. Yes sir.

            MR. ROBINSON. Give the conversation as near as you can, —— what you said and what she said.

            THE WITNESS.  Yes sir.  And I asked her where Bridget was and she told me that Bridget was up stairs in her room: and I said, “Where were you?” and she said that she was up stairs in the barn, or “up in the barn”, —- I am not positive as to the “stairs” part.  She said she was up in the barn.

Q. Is that substantially all the talk with her?

    A. With her yes.  I talked with her only that one time.

Q. Where was she when you had this talk with her?

    A. She was up stairs in her room, at the head of the front hallway stairs.

Q. Did you make any search about the house at that time before going out doors

    A. No. There were quite a number of officers there, —- seemed to come very rapidly and they were searching everywhere.

Page 690

and I came down stairs from there and went through the room where Mr. Borden lay and went out of the house into the barn and up stairs.  I did that, the thought came to me—

     MR. ROBINSON.  Well never mind. 

Q. Perhaps that won’t do Mr. Medley.  When you got to the barn, how did you find the door?
    A. The door was fast with a hasp over a staple and an iron pin in it.

Q. I think I know just what you mean, but won’t you draw it and then I shall not lead you. Just make a rough diagram of what you mean by a hasp.

      (the witness drew the outline of the hasp)

       MR. ROBINSON  Let him state what he means

Q. Tell what you mean by hasp.

    A. Well, this is the piece of metal that goes over the staple, and it is held in place by a pin.

Page 691

Q. When you went out into the yard and to this door, did you see anyone else out or about there?

    A Yes sir. There were quite a number outside and in the yard, one or two officers.  Mr. Sawyer and Mr. Wixon and someone else.  I couldn’t recall them all.

Q. And Mr. Sawyer in the yard, you mean?

    A. Mr. Sawyer was outside of the door, outside of the house, standing on the step, as I recollect it.

Q. After you went into the barn what did you do? Describe in detail.

A. I went up stairs until I reached about three or four steps from the top, and while there part of my body was above the floor, above the level of the floor and I looked around the barn to see if there was any evidence of anything having been disturbed and I stooped down low to see if I could discern any marks on the floor of the barn having been made there.  I did that by stooping down and looking across the bottom of the barn floor.  I didn’t see any and I reached out my hand to see if I could make an impression on the floor of the barn, and I did by putting my hand down so fashion (illustrating) and found that I made an impression on the barn floor.

Q. Describe what there was on or about the floor by which you made an impression?

    A, Seemed to be accumulated hay dust and other dust.

Q. How distinctly could you see the marks which you made with your hand?

Page 692

    A. I could see them quite distinctly when I looked for them.

Q. Go on and describe anything else which you did?

    A. Then I stepped up on the top and took four or five steps on the outer edge of the barn floor, the edge nearest the stairs, they came up to see if I could discern those and I did.

Q. How did you look to see if  (you) could discern those footsteps which you had made?

  1. I did it in the first place by stooping down and casting my eye on a level with the barn floor and could see them plainly.

Q. Did you see any other footsteps in that dust than those which you made yourself?

    A. No sir.

Q. After you had made the examination what did you do?

    A. I came down stairs and searched around the pile of lumber and other stuff there was in the yard, look for anything that we could find and after a while I met Mr. Fleet.

Q. Wait a moment now.  Did you notice what the temperature was in the loft of the barn as you went up there?

    A. Well, I know it was hot that is all, very hot.  You know it was a hot day.

Q.  Did you notice whether the windows or the hay door were open or closed?

    A. those were closed at the time.

Q. Will you say which of the three door and two windows were closed?

    A.  There is a little door on the side of the barn upstairs. I think it was on the south side of the barn, which they used for putting in hay.  There was two windows.

Page 693

A. one on each end of the barn.  The door and the windows were closed.

Q. You have told us then that you searched about the yard.  Did you find anything?

    A. No sir. 

Q. Did you receive any instructions after you came down from the barn into the yard?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Tell us about how soon after?

    A. My recollection of it is that it would be perhaps ten or twelve or fifteen minutes some little time after that. 

Q. Can you give me your best judgement how long after you came to the premises it was before you went up into the barn and made this examination?

    A. That would be within about ten minutes perhaps eight minutes, eight or ten minutes.

Q. Where did you go from the premises?

    A. To the Bowenville depot.

Q. What depot is that?

    A. That is the main depot the Fall River depot of the Old Colony Railroad. 

Q. The stone station we have spoken of?

    A. The station.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson) The same one you spoke of before?

    A. The station 

Page 694

Q. Did you come back again to the house on Thursday?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. About what time?

    A. About three o’clock or thereabouts. I am not exactly sure as to that time.

Q. Did you stay about there any after you came?

    A. I stayed there until about half past five.

Q. Is there anything of importance that occurred during that time?

    A. Not that I know of.

Q. When did you next return to the house?

    A. That evening about 8 o'clock.

Q. Stay about the house any that evening?

    A. I did stay a little while.

Q. When next did you go to the house?

    A. I said  I beg your pardon. My answer to that other question as to the time that I returned in the evening.

Q. Yes.

    A. After I went away at half past five, I am not certain about that being 8 o’clock, I think it was a little earlier.  I am not sure about the time that I was there the second time in the evening.  It might be earlier than 8 o'clock.

Q.  Did you take part in any search about the house at any time?

    A. Yes sir. I took part in the search on the following Monday, the Monday following the murder?

Q. What time did you go to the house on the following Monday?

    A. Some time after 10 o’clock, I think it was. I am not sure as to the exact time.  It was before the noon.

Q. And were there other officer with you?

    A, Yes sir.

Q. And among others was Mr. Desmond?

    A. Yes sir.

Page 695

Q. He is said to have been captain of the squad that was searching is that so?

    A. Yes sir, that was so.

Q. What was his rank at that time?

    A. Well, he was acting captain by appointment by the Mayor.

Page 696

Q. When you went to the house where did you first go Mr. Medley? What part of the house?

    A. On the Monday?

Q. Yes on the Monday.

    A. Down in the cellar.  We all went to the cellar.

Q. Describe exactly what you did until you found something.

    A. We started to examine.

Q. I want your own personal movements.

    A. Well, I examined all that I could in the wash cellar, then I helped to put out some barrels and things that were in a corner off of the wash cellar in another little cellar and after putting part of those back in place I think there was a large pile of wood in that particular corner of the cellar and after working on that awhile I came out and went into another cellar next to the wash cellar and in there while searching I found a small hatchet head. 

Q. Will you tell us where that was?

    A. It was in a box.

Q. What sort of box?

    A. Well a box perhaps fifteen or sixteen inches long and four or five inches deep.

Q. Do you recall where the box was?

    A. Yes

Q. where was it?

    A. The box was on a block. I am not sure whether it is a chopping block or a block made from a box but it was some piece that rested above the level of the cellar floor, perhaps about a foot and a half high and this box was on top of that.

Q. What was there in that box beside the handleless hatchet?

    A. It seemed to me like old rubbish  irons of different kinds and one or two tools I have forgotten just what they were and some nails I think.

Page 697

Q. Was anyone in the cellar with you when you found this hatchet or the head of the hatchet?
    A. No sir.

Q. Where was Captain Desmond at the time?

    A. In the passage way in the cellar.

Q. How far from you when you found this weapon?

    A. Two or three feet, perhaps.

Q. Did you take it from the box?

    A. I did.

Q. What did you do with it.

    A. I showed it to Captain Desmond.

Q. How soon after you took it up did you show it to him?

    A. Right away.

 Q. Did you receive any instructions from him?

      MR. ROBINSON  well not what they were.

      MR. MOODY   No not what they were

Q.  Was there any talk between you and him about the hatchet?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. I don’t ask what was said.  What did you then do after you found the hatchet and reported it to Mr. Desmond?

    A. Put it in a paper and wrapped it up put it in a paper and showed it, I think to some other officer, I cannot say just now who, and carried it immediately to the City Marshal’s office.

Q. To whom did you deliver it at the City Marshal’s office?

    A. The City Marshal.

Q. Have you had any possession of it since that time?

    A. No sir.

Page 698

Q. Did you find any handle or anything having the appearance of a handle to this hatchet except the piece that was in the eye of the hatchet?

    A. No sir.

Q. Is that the hatchet head which you found? (Showing hatchet head to witness)

    A. No sir.

Q. How did it differ at that time from its present condition?

      MR. ROBINSON  I object to that

      MR. MOODY  well, I will put it in a leading form then, if you do not want it that way.

Q. Was this piece of wood then separate form the hatchet or not?

      MR. ROBINSON. Mr Moody I beg pardon, I may not have understood your question. When          

      you asked how it differed, were you inquiring about the piece of wood?

      MR. MOODY.  That is what I had in mind.

     MR ROBINSON.  I beg pardon, I thought you were referring to the whole blade.

Q. Referring to the eye of the hatchet and that piece of wood, is there any difference now from what it was when you found it.

    A. Yes sir.

Q. What was the difference?

    A. This was in the hatchet.

Q. The wood was in the hatchet?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Now sir, I wish you would describe without any further question the appearance of that hatchet as you found it?

    A. I found it in the box as I have already stated and it was covered over with dust.  I rubbed it on the edge and the rusty appearance gave me the impression that perhaps—

Page 699

Q. I don’t think you ought to give your impression, just what you observed.

    A. Well, I observed it was all covered over with dust, and there was some dark spots here that resembled blood on the blade.  Whether rust or blood of course I didn’t know and they were on the hatchet in that respect something as it is now, only there seemed to be more brightness on the hatchet at that time, but about the same color as I observe now on the hatchet.

Q. That is, at the cutting edge of the hatchet?

    A. Yes sir, just there — as that appears rusty so it seemed then.  Then it was all covered with dust, as I took it from the box —  coarse dust.

Q. Can you describe the kind of dust that there was upon it and its appearance: describe it as carefully as you can?

    A. Well, it was a coarse dust and seemed to me like the dust of ashes such as would accumulate from a large blow of ashes — in emptying an ash pan, for instance there would be quite a spread in a wind of dust — and such as would accumulate in that manner. 

Q. Upon what parts of the hatchet was this dust?

    A. On about the whole of it.

Q. Take the sides the two sides of the hatchet?

    A. I didn’t observe any difference.

Q. Now did you notice anything with reference to the wood?

    A. I noticed that that was a new break.

Q. Did you notice anything with respect to the ashes or dust upon the point of breaking?
 I mean this part here (pointing).

    A. I cannot say that I did, no sir, I don't know that I did that.

     MR. KNOWLTON (lead prosecutor) I don’t hear the answer.

     THE WITNESS.  I don’t know that I observed anything of that kind on the break.

Q. Will you explain fully the last part of your answer — that you did not observe anything of that kind on the break. What do you mean by that?

    A. I mean that I did not observe any dust on this break.

Page 701

Q. What is the color of that break now compared with what it was at the time?

    A. It is darker now.

Q. Did you make any change in the condition of the hatchet before you carried it and delivered it to the City Marshal?

    A . None other than when I rubbed this particular point that I speak about.

Q. Describe the point so that the stenographer will get it?

    A. Near the edge of the blade and on the bevel of the hatchet.

Q. Could you tell whether the dust adhered or was loose?

    A. I did not observe that close enough to say. 


Q. ( Mr. Robinson) Did you go up , Mr. Medley to the Borden house with anybody?

    A. No sir.

Q. When you arrived there I think you called the gentleman you first saw a Mr.  Sawyer?

    A. Yes sir. 

Q. Was there anyone else you saw on the outside of the house?

    A. Yes

Q. Who were they?

    A. I cannot recall now — some officers, one or two, Mr. Doherty 

Q. Mr. Doherty is an officer?

    A. Yes sir, he was in citizen’s clothes. I mean, in speaking of officers in that connection, officers in uniform, and Mr. Doherty was in citizen’s clothes.

Q. If I understand you correctly, there were several officers in uniform and Mr. Doherty in citizen’s clothes?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you notice anyone who was not a policeman beside Mr. Sawyer?

    A. There were several there not policemen.

Page 702

Q. And now speaking of the time you first got there?

    A. Yes sir, I understand.

Q. How many were there who were not policemen?

    A. I should think three or four, surely.

Q. Of course anyone who was a policeman, you undoubtedly knew?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Now Mr. Sawyer stood out on the side steps, on the outside?

    A. Yes sir. — I beg your pardon about that.  I won’t swear about this being outside or in, Sawyer, when I got there. 

Q. Right near the screen door?

    A. Yes sir, but whether inside or out, I cannot say.

Q Did you remain between the street and the outside door till Mr. Fleet came?

    A. Yes sir, there was only a short time till he came.

Q. Did you fix the time of his arriving there at the Borden house?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Will you tell it again?

    A. I think it was about from fifteen minutes to twelve to twelve o'clock.

Q. That is between 11:30 and 11:45?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And which one it was you are not quite sure? It might be either?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. It might be as late as quarter to twelve, considering the distance?

    A. It ought not to be more than that.

Q. then after Mr. Fleet cam, after remaining a minute and a half you went in the house?

    A. Yes sir.

Q.You went where?

    A. In the back door where Mr. Sawyer stood.

Q. Now, tell me just what your movements were.

    A. I went into the room where Mr. Borden lay dead and from there I went up stairs in the room where Mrs. Borden lay dead and then I came out from there and spoke to an officer in the front hall way upstairs and wrapped on the door occupied by Miss Borden. 

Page 703

Q. Was anyone with you as you walked round the house?

    A. I dont think there was at that time, no sir.

Q. Was Mr. Fleet with you?

    A. No sir, he went in the house I should think a minute ahead of me.

Q. When you went to Miss Lizzie’s room did Mr. Fleet go with you?

    A. No sir. 

Q. You went in alone?

    A. I did.

Q. Who else was there?

    A. Miss Borden, Dr. Bowen, Mr buck and I think Miss Russell, but I won’t be sure.

Q. Was that the time that you had conversation with Miss Borden?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And the only time, I think you said?

    A. the only time. 

Q. That is the time when you asked her where she was and she told you up in the barn?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And there was nothing more said, you have given it all?

    A. As near as I can recall.

Q. Have any talk with other people in the room? Exchange any words about affairs?

    A. I could not say as to that. I don’t remember.

Q. It is not unlikely that you did say something about it, expressed your feelings about it?

    A. It would not be unlikely, no sir.

Q.You had seen both bodies then?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Up to that time as I understand you, Mr. Fleet had not come into your presence in that room?

    A. No sir.

Page 704

Q. Where did you go then?

    A. I came down stairs and went out and upstairs in the bar as I described, to the head of the stairs.

Q. How many people ere there in the yard at that time?

    A. Well, there were more people then when I first arrived, but I count not say how many.

Q. More officers, I presume?

    A. No sir.

Q. No but more citizens?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Now I am speaking of the yard behind the house around off south of the barn and all round there?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. A dozen fifteen or twenty people all together then?

    A. I dont think there was so many as that, as twenty - perhaps a dozen.

Q. They were all freely moving about there and people freely coming and going in the yard, were there not?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. When you went in the barn, do you know what time it was?

    A. I only know by the length of time that I think I was in the house.

Q. Perhaps you cannot tell any more than the rest of us can infer from where you say you went. Did you stop anywhere there in the house, in any of the rooms other than in Miss Lizzie’s?

    A. that is the only place I stopped.

Q. Did you have any conversation with any of the ladies in the kitchen below?

    A. Not at that time.

Q. then you went in the barn and looked about, as you said?

    A. Yes sir.

Page 705

Q. And you did not see any evidence of any tracks in the dust?

    A. No sir.

Q. Anywhere?

    A. No sir.

Q. It was all perfect?

    A. Seemed so to me.

Q. You went in alone?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Do you know whether the window on the west end had a curtain or not?

    A. I cannot say about that. I don’t know.

Q. You don’t remember about that?

    A.  I don’t

Q.How about the window on the east?

    A . Well I don’t remember that but I think there was a curtain on one of the windows, but I cant say which.

Q. Did you look at boxes or baskets up there?

    A. I did not go on the floor other than the time I have described and I stood round there with my body half way above the floor and looked round and on the south side of the barn there was a bench, I think and some things on it.  What they were I don’t know, but I think there was quite a large basket, a basket of some kind or other.

Q. do you think this is the one here?

    A. I could not say whether it was or not, because I am not sure of it.

Q. How long were you up there in the barn?

    A. Two or three minutes.

Q. What were you doing?

    A. I was looking round.

Q. Did I understand you that you did not go round on the barn floor?

    A. No sir. I did not.

Q Your looking round consisted of the time you occupied standing on the stairs and looking about?

    A. Yes sir.

Page 706

Q. You did not go up on the floor except when you went up two steps and came back as you said?

    A. No sir.

Q. You did not go over to the window?

    A. No sir.

Q. And you did not examine over there at all?

    A. No sir. I did not.

Q. Then two or three minutes would be consumed in standing there and looking about generally and taking a general look?

    A. Yes.

Q. That was all you did?

    A. That was all.

Q. Then you came right down?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And went out in the yard, and went immediately to the railroad station?

    A. Not at that time.

Q. I thought you received instructions?

    A. I did, but that was after waiting round the house.

Q. Did you go in the house?

    A. I did. I forgot to tell Mr. Moody that.

Q. Then I am not at fault

    A.  No.

Q. You went in the house?

    A. Yes sir, after going in the back entry I went to go down in the cellar and while

going down in the cellar officer Mullaly, I think was on the back cellar stairs or near there and I saw this pail in the wash cellar and called his attention to it and that is all I did there.

Q. you did not continue down in the cellar?

    A. No sir.

Q. you went out in the yard and then you got your instructions?

    A. Yes sir.

Page 707

Q. you went on the 12:29 train?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you go away on the train?

    A. No sir, I did not get there in time.  I thought I would ride to the other side of bridge. There is a stopping station and I could get off there and walk over the bridge.

Q. Then you did not get back to the Borden premises until about three o'clock in the afternoon?

    A. About that.

Q. you were round there until somewhere about 5:30?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Was that on the outside of the house?

    A. Yes

Q. There were still officers in the yard and all round there?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And people?

    A. Yes sir.

Q And people in the front of the house on the street and in the house?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. There were a great many attracted there?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Now we will pass on to Monday. How long do you think you were in the cellar before you left with this hatchet wrapped up in a paper?

    A. I dont think over a half hour.

Q. you went right off after showing it to Captain Desmond?

    A.  Yes sir.

Q. This you found in the shape it is now except the piece of wood was in the eye?

    A. Yes sir.

Page 708

Q. Will you show the jury about how it was put into the eye?

  Lay it on the outside to correspond to its position inside.

    A. (Illustrating) So, I should think. I won’t say with relation to this which was on the inside, but you mean generally how it was.

Q. What did you say about that notch. it was on the inside or outside?

    A.  I say I won’t say as to that because I didn’t observe it close enough.

Q. You don’t really know whether the handle was in the eye in that way or whether it was in the eye in that way? (Illustrating)

    A. No sir.

       MR. MOODY.  Not from memory he says.

        MR. ROBINSON  well, wait.

       THE WITNESS.  I can't say that , to swear to that.

Q. you can’t really tell which way it was?

    A.  No I cant not to swear to that positively.

Q. But it was in one way or the other?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you take it out of the eye - the piece?

    A. No sir.

Q. you didn’t change it at all about that?

    A. No sir.

Q. And were these silvers broken off at that time?

    A. If they were I didn’t notice them.

Q. You would not, perhaps when it was in the eye?

    A. No.

Q. And there was none right with you when you put your hand in the box?

    A. No sir.

Page 709

Q.The box as I understand you  was about a foot and a half from the ground?

    A. Yes, resting on something.

Q. Standing on some sort of block.  But you wouldn’t put it up as high, even, as the chair seat?

    A. I couldn’t say as to that. It seemed to me it was a little higher than the chair seat about a foot and a half I thought.

Q. A foot and a half from the ground?

    A. Yes sir.  That would be a little higher, perhaps than the chair seat.

Q. Well perhaps so . But about a foot and a half you think?

    A. I think so yes.

Q. Well, we will assume that is a foot?

    A. Yes.

Q. And it would be about so much more?

    A. Yes and now that you illustrate it I should think a little higher than that.

Q. that? (indicating)

    A. About that, perhaps.

Q. Was there any difficulty as you stood on the floor in looking right into the open box?

    A. Not a thing.

Q. You didn’t have to get up and look over in, or reach over in to pull out?

    A. No sir. 

Q. It was perfectly clear to your sight?

    A. It was. 

Q. Where did that box stand - the block or whatever it rested on?

    A. Perhaps three feet from the entrance to the cellar, might possibly be four feet from the entrance to the cellar, a short distance.

Q. Did you notice an old chimney there?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Now can you locate it with reference to that?

    A.  Well, I cannot. That was the only time, you see that I was down in that particular cellar, and I am not familiar with the basement.  There was a mason there to work, I think, taking out some brick or something.

Q. Digging out wasn’t he?

    A. Yes Mr. Jennings, I think, was near by at one time when I saw him and I think he afterwards came up, but I am not sure as to that.  They were pulling some brick out of a chimney or something. I didn’t stay to see what they were doing.

Q. And you said when that was in the box you could see that that was in the box just as quick as you looked there?

    A. Yes sir.

Q Looked right down at it.  And this hatchet head, in that shape, was lying right there in plain sight?

    A. It was. 

Q. And was it on the top of the other things?

    A. It was on the top of the other things.

Q. Now what were the other things underneath?

    A. I can't think what they were. They seemed to me as I say, old rubbish perhaps, nails and there might have been a bolt, an old bolt or two.

Q. Some old tools?

    A. i think likely. My recollection seems to be so, yes.

Q.An old cast off box, wasn't it?

    A. Yes sir, that is what I call it.

Q. A common thing to see around the house?

    A. Just the same as I have got in my cellar.

Q. You put your old broken hatchets in there don't you?

    A. Well I don't know about that, I haven’t got any of those.

Page 711

Q. All old duds get in such places?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Where they get all covered up with dust, don’t they?

       MR. KNOWLTON  Wait

       MR. ROBINSON.  Well, I will withdraw it.

Q. These were all covered up with dust?

    A. In the box?

Q. Yes. 

    A. Well, I don’t know about that, I only know about the hatchet.

Q. Well that was?

    A. Yes, I didn’t notice anything else because I wasn’t interested, you know in 

anything but that.

Q. You saw that and thought that might be of some consequence?

    A. I did.

Q. And you took it out?

    A. I did

Q. You didn’t know whether anybody else had taken it out before of not?

    A. I did not.

Q. You hadn’t heard anything about it?

    A. Not a word about that.

Q. You discovered that and took it right along?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And it was covered with ashes, dust you say?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And you described it, I think, by saying it was just the same as it would be when a piece like that stood somewhere near an ash pile, and as you dumped your ashes the dirt went over it?

    A. Yes sir. coarse dust of some sort.

Q. Coal ashes. It wasn’t wood ashes?

    A. No. I shouldn’t think that but still I don’t know.  It was coarse ash dust of some kind.

Q. You know the difference between the feeling and looks of coal and wood ashes of course?

    A. Yes, I think, I do, but I am not familiar enough to express myself in this particular case.

Page 712

Q. Then your opinion of the fineness and coarseness of the quality of ashes wouldn’t be much use to us?

    A. Only I know it was a coarse dust.

Q. That is, you know it wasn't fine dust?

    A. Yes.

Q. But it was a coal ash dust as you think?

    A.I say I am not sure as to that, because I am not enough familiar with it to know.

Q. did you see some ashes close by?

    A. I did. My recollection seems to be that there was a pile of ashes there

Q Quite a pile, wasn’t there?

    A. I think so.

Q. And you didn’t look to see whether the other contents of the box were about in the same condition?

    A. I did not, in fact, I didn’t go back there after showing it to the Captain.  Immediately after finding it I showed it to him.

Q. It was about the same as putting it down in there - your action  - and that was lying somewhere on the top right in plain sight?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And you reached over and took it out into your hand?

    A. I did. 

Q. Looked at it both sides?

    A. I won’t just say to that.

Q. Pick it up and tell the jury just about what you did with it in your hands. Go right through in the same way as you would.

    A. Well, it lay, say , on the desk, in the box, as it lays there now.  (Puts hatchet on reporters desk) I was near by it, I saw that and my attention was attracted at once, and I picked it up and looked at it just like that and I sung out to Captain Desmond.

Page 713

Q. No matter what you said.

    A. And showed it to him and he says

Q. No

  1. Then we took it into the water closet. There is a little water closet in the basement, at any rate a small room there.

Q. you said, we took it?

    A. Yes Capt. Desmond and I.

Q. Well, you didn’t both get hold of it?

    A. No he went with me.

Q. Who carried it?

    A. I did and gave it to him there and he says

Q. No matter.

    A. Yes. Then I was anyways, I handled it very carefully at his suggestion if that is right.

Q. No. 

    A. I handled it carefully and we looked it all over, and then rubbed something off there like that. It seemed to me.

Q. No, you rubbed something off?

    A. Yes.

Q. Very well

    A. And the he says

Q. No. 

    A. Then I took it down to the city marshal’s office.

Q. you did something else with it before?

    A. I wrapped it in paper.

Q. Where did you get your paper?

    A.  In the basement.

Q. A piece of newspaper?

    A. I think it was a piece of brown paper. I wouldn’t be sure as to that. It was a piece of a paper and that was all I remember surely.

Page 714

Q. Did you show it to any other officer?

    A. Yes I showed it to one officer as I was passing out.  I cannot think now who it was. I had it in my pocket.

Q. Side pocket?

    A. Yes.

Q. Did you wear a sack coat at that time?

    A. Yes sir, a common summer sack coat. Not like this one. It was a light colord coat and I showed him that and I think tore enough of the paper off or something to let him see what it was.

Page 715

Q (BY Mr. Mood.) Who was that?

    A, I cant think who the officer was. I remember showing it to this officer, but I can't think now who it was.  It was one of the officers. I don’t think it was Mullaly. Anyway I can't be sure about that. I showed it to one officer.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) there wasn’t any handle in that box?

    A. In the box?

Q. Yes.

    A. No sir, not that I saw.

Q. Well, you don’t believe there was, do you , from your investigation?

    A. No sir. I do not.

Q. you do not. If you had picked that hatchet head out of a box in plain sight, having no handle to it, and there had been a handle there, you would have probably seen it, wouldn't you?

    A. Yes sir. I think I should probably have seen it.

Q. You cannot tell us much about the end, the broken end of this piece, ca you except you say it looks dark?

    A. that is all I can tell you.

Q. You wrapped it up in a paper and folded it up.  Perhaps you will illustrate how you folded it up in the paper.  The piece you won’t need.

    A. (Folding hatchet head in piece of newspaper) this is only as near as I can remember doing it.

Q. Well, that is quite right. That is all I have a right to ask you.

    A. I am not very tidy at such things. (Handing parcel to counsel) Now that as near as I can think, it is about how I did it.

Q. And then you put it in your pocket?

    A. I put it in my pocket. Nothing stylish about the manner of wrapping it up.

Page 716

Q. Well I am glad to find a man that is not on style.  Then you carried that off down to the police station?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. And from that time on you not have any charge of it?

    A. No sir.

Q And I do not know whether you saw it afterward?

    A. I did see it afterwards.

Q. Down there?

    A. In the grand jury room.

Q. Oh yes. But you had nothing to do with it in any way?

    A. No sir.

Q. did you state that you were a patrolman last year?

    A. Yes sir.

Q.  And are you now?

    A. No sir.

Q You have been promoted?

    A Yes sir

Q. When?

    A. In December

Q. Did you know a man by the nam of McHenry?

    A Yes sir.

Q. Did you see him about those premises near the time of the tragedy?

    A. I don’t remember to have seen McHenry there for some days after.

Q. And was he ever engaged with you unpin this case?

    A. Yes.

Q. When?

  1. I cannot say as to the dates. It was after that - it was after the finding of the hatchet - one day I went to the house with him to measure the distance from the barn to the house or something that he wanted.

Q. you and he went together to measure the distance?

    A. Yes sir. He wanted to get something about distances, about the barn and then fence.

Page 717

Q. Was he working with you?

    A. Yes sir. I suppose he must have been.

Q. Under what direction did you go at that time?

    A. Under his, his suggestion, I guess.

Q. Under the suggestion of McHenry?

    A. Yes sir. He wanted to go to measure the distance.

Q. You were under his control?

    A. No sir.

Q. He was an associate officer, was he?

    A. Yes sir, he was.

Q. On the police force?

    A. Yes sir, went with any officer whenever he chose.

Q. Perhaps you may not understand me correctly.

    A. Perhaps not.

Q. Was he an associate officer on the force?

    A. Oh no sir.

Q. Do you now whether he was engaged to assist or not in the search, the investigation?

    A. I don’t know as to that. I had nothing to do with his employment. But I presumed that he was.

Q. Well, perhaps that is not competent.  you didn't know of your own knowledge?

    A. No sir, I did not.

Q. Did you ever have consultation with the marshal in regard to this case when McHenry was present?

    A. I don’t know about that. I can’t remember and yet it is more than likely that I did.

Q. When you came out of the barn the time of that investigation about noon of Thursday, August 4th, do you know how you left the door?

    A. Yes.

Q. And you may tell us.

    A. I closed the door and left it just as I had found it.

Page 718

Q. that is the hasp on?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. Was it a little piece of iron or something that went through the staple?

    A. Yes hung from a chain or rope or something just to keep the hasp on the staple.

Q.Well the hasp was a flat piece of iron that had a hole in it and went over the staple?

    A. yes sir.

Q. A common thing on a barn?

    A. Yes sir.

Q. you didn't testify at the preliminary examination did you?

    A. No sir.

Q. (By Mr Moody.) Mr. Medley, was this box in which you found the hatchet a box that was attached to anything or a movable bo?

    A. Movable.